Ben Yerby:          

Welcome back to Justice To Healing. I am Ben Yerby, the Integrated Marketing Communication Specialist for the National Drug Court Resource Center. And alongside me is Dr. Jeanne Persuit, Professor of Communications Studies at University of North Carolina Wilmington, and the Director of Marketing and Communication for the National Drug Court Resource Center. Welcome Jeanne.

Jeanne Persuit:
Thank you, Ben. It's good to be here with you.

Ben Yerby:
We're excited to have you.

Jeanne Persuit:
Let's talk a little bit about how we both came to be here.

Ben Yerby:
Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:
So when we decided to pursue the grant opportunity that funds the National Drug Court Resource Center, I was invited by our co-directors, Dr. Christie Lanier and Kristen DeVall to join the team, which would be an interdisciplinary team that would support the National Drug Court Resource Center. And when we talked, when they met with me, we talked through some approaches to dissemination because clearly, dissemination of our work is a key part of the grant and of the mission of National Drug Court Resource Center.

And my area of study and practice is integrated marketing communication, which is a little bit more of a holistic approach to communicating with all stakeholders and communicating with them, not just to them. And then really building a brand story that is resonating and that is helpful and useful for people to understand what we're trying to accomplish. And one that's really infused with that translational criminology, trying to turn research into practice.

So I was honored to be asked to be part of this effort, and Dr. Lanier and Dr. DeVall were very enthusiastic about that integrated marketing communication approach. And so, one thing we decided was we had to hire an IMC specialist, and so we hired you Ben-

Ben Yerby:          

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:  

Because we knew from your education here at UNCW and at Elon, and your experience, that you would be really on-board with this approach to the NDCRC and how we would reshape and ultimately brand the center.

Ben Yerby:          

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:  

So the podcast is one of those things that we have worked on together, along with my students. Our students, undergraduates in Comm Studies in Pier601 Creative, we worked with them to create the branding and the name Justice to Healing of this podcast. So we also have this commitment to applied learning at UNCW and that's really part of what we try to do at NDCRC, is work with students as much as possible to give them the opportunity to engage in this real-world work that is so meaningful and impactful.

Ben Yerby:          

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:  

So that's how we got to where we are now.

Ben Yerby:          

Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:  

So what I do, I talked a little bit about what I do. I do have a full-time job as a professor, I direct a graduate program in IMC, but I am responsible for the integrated marketing communication strategy and direction of the NDCRC. And so, when it comes to thinking about audiences and dissemination, and different ways we can tell our story, I work with Ben, we have Kayla Cox, our Social Media Coordinator, and we work with the other directors, Dr. Lanier, Dr. DeVall, Dr. MacKain, Dr. Vetter, and then our Program Coordinator, Savannah Bryson, and our IT Specialist, Kenneth McMillan.

So we have a broad team that brings a lot of different functions together, and Ben, Kayla, and I really execute, we strategize and execute those IMC, telling the story of the NDCRC.

Ben Yerby:          

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:  

But Ben is much more day-to-day, in it all the time. Whereas I have some other responsibilities as a professor here.

Ben Yerby:          

Right.

Jeanne Persuit:  

You want to talk a little bit about some of your initiatives that you've been doing, Ben?

Ben Yerby:          

Yeah, for sure. Obviously, one of the big ones is the Justice To Healing Podcast. It's a pleasure of mine to produce these episodes for ourselves and for the community, so that we're able to communicate information effectively and through different forms of media. And I guess, bettering ourselves in terms of the work that we do in treatment courts, and all things treatment courts.               

And so publication design, social media, graphics, video content production, data visualization, all across the board, creative projects and website user experience, and really delivering content in any and every way possible sort of comes across my lap. And it's a pleasure of mine to work on projects like that because I know that we're making a difference in the work that we do. So it's very cool.

Jeanne Persuit:

So let's talk a little bit about how that you and I, who are usually behind the scenes. So usually a communication specialist or an IMC specialist is working behind the scenes to support our rockstar co-directors, Director of Clinical treatment. And so the suggestion came for us to talk about selling your treatment courts and promoting the use of treatment courts, and how do individual courts, state coordinators as well get the information about the resources and the opportunity to utilize treatment courts.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Jeanne Persuit:

And so I know you and I talked a little bit about, well, how would we do this? And then of course, being the IMC people we are, we pushed it off because we want to hear from everybody else.

Ben Yerby:

Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:

And you and I are communication experts, not treatment court experts.

Ben Yerby:

Right.

Jeanne Persuit:

So our job is to promote, again, to facilitate the experts in the field to be heard in multiple different ways, to translate their highly technical, highly research informed information into multiple ways to be understood.

And so decided we would have a podcast and talk a little bit about some of the things that we do as communication, IMC specialists, and also about telling the story, because telling a story is a good metaphor for what we do.

Ben Yerby:

Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:

It's not self-evident. So when you say to someone, "Do you know what a drug court is? Do you know what a treatment court is?" The average person probably, unless they have some experience with it, probably is unsure about what that does.

Ben Yerby:

Right.

Jeanne Persuit:

So our job was first to learn.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

And we're still learning.

Ben Yerby:

Right.

Jeanne Persuit:

And we're fortunate to have very great teachers in Dr. DeVall and Dr. Lanier on how drug and treatment courts work, but we also need to know who their audiences are. And we're really... I work from a perspective that is co-creational. So we're trying not to just do things to people. We're not just communicating at people. We want to make sure that there's some sort of dialogic approach to this, that we're engaging in the co-creation of knowledge.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

And really, that's a difference between what we're doing here with IMC and maybe what traditional public relations or advertising does.

Ben Yerby:

Right.

Jeanne Persuit:

And so that's the different perspective that we're trying to bring to this and to help also treatment courts, administrators who often get tasked with the communication function. We know that you all are busy.

Ben Yerby:

Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:

Way busier.

Ben Yerby:

Right.

Jeanne Persuit:

And that it's not always a primary concern. If some communication things fall, promotional things don't get done, it's not going to jeopardize someone's life. And whereas if something doesn't happen, doesn't get done in the court, the repercussions are serious and pretty significant. And so with that, thinking through how, if you don't have your own Integrated Marketing Communication Specialist like the NDCRC does, which if you can, that would be awesome, but what are some ways to even not just tips and tricks, but thinking about how you can engage in that co-creational model of IMC yourself, and tell the story of your treatment court or drug court, so that people understand the benefits and why they should potentially refer people through this process.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Jeanne Persuit:

So that's what we're going to talk about.

Ben Yerby:

Yeah, For sure. I guess having said that, what would be the baseline or the first step into, I guess sort of developing a sort of, "IMC plan," for a treatment court, would you say?

Jeanne Persuit:

Let's talk a little bit about what's being done right now, because you can kind of see some of the things that are already being done. So one of those things, and we talk about storytelling and I do want to, because I'm a professor and I have to make sure that the theory is out there.

Ben Yerby:

Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:

One of the theorists in narrative and communication studies is Walter Fisher who says, "Humans are natural storytellers." So we're all thinking and learning and understanding in stories. And so if you think through that, how that plays out in your life and how you communicate with others, you can really see how having a story that... he talks about narrative fidelity, that it makes sense that it's something that sounds like, okay, this could be true. That's that fidelity.

And then also that coherence that there's some sort of beginning and end. And so that beginning and end, I see that a lot in the media coverage of treatment courts.

Ben Yerby:

Right.

Jeanne Persuit:

So something that treatment courts have gotten really good at is publicizing graduations.

Ben Yerby:

Right. Yep.

Jeanne Persuit:

And that, because people like stories with an ending.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

So people want to hear success stories. There's a tangible result. There is that understanding of graduation is metaphor. Pretty much everybody either has graduated or know someone who has graduated from something, high school, kindergarten, college, think about whatever you graduate from. We know what we wear, the regalia, the flat hat, the mortar board.

So these things resonate, and so it's not surprising. And we're looking at media coverage of drug and treatment courts and seeing a lot of graduation stories-

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

Because those are feel good stories. Those are stories that people want to hear good news, even though really, there's studies that show that they like bad news.

Ben Yerby:

Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:

But that's okay. So that basic story of making sure that you're facilitating the coverage of your graduation-

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

Is something that will almost definitely peak the interest of the media in your local town, because that's nice and local. And again, that has all those aspects. And there's also a much more ritual aspect that we're engaging in a ritual of redemption and renewal, and completion. And that's actually... people really resonate with that.

So it demonstrates our success and our results. So I would say keep that up.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

That's something that if you don't do that already, in Zoom times it's been a little difficult to get good photos, but really inviting media to your graduation ceremony would be a great way to start if you haven't thought about how do you get the word out there? So what's interesting with that though, is that we're starting with the end.

Ben Yerby:

Right.

Jeanne Persuit:

So we're starting with the results, when you're successful. I've noticed some social... I'm sorry, some media coverage of specifically people.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Jeanne Persuit:

So if someone famous goes through-

Ben Yerby:

Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:

The process, they get even more coverage, which is beneficial to us as TTA providers-

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

Because we want to make sure that people are aware of what the resources of drug and treatment courts are, beyond the specialized people that work in those areas.

Ben Yerby:

Right.

Jeanne Persuit:

We would like the average citizen to know what this is about, and those kind of stories help tell the average citizen what this is about.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

And that's a basic press release, or you should have a crime... you might have a crime beat reporter in your area, and so you can look up how to write a press release. It's pretty basic, especially for something that's an event, time, place, date.

Ben Yerby:

Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:

Here's what's going to happen. If you have a client that... a graduate who you think is really good at... would be comfortable speaking to the media, you could make them available. They could talk a little bit, give them some talking points. Just don't let it be an open mic. It should be talking specifically about the impact of treatment courts on their lives and the significance of the graduation. So I would say that that is the thing that we know will get covered.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

And will get your story out there. Beyond that though, so if you're like, "I already do that," that's awesome because we see that in our Google Alerts about drug and treatment court.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

Now we want to think about how we tell the stories of the rest of it. And we also think about audience. So that's really good for the general audience.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

But a lot of what you and I do is intended for a specialized audience.

Ben Yerby:

Right.

Jeanne Persuit:

And so our challenge for the NDCRC is trying to reach that specialized audience.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

And maybe Ben, you can talk a little bit about who we try and communicate with?

Ben Yerby:

I think the NDCRC is tasked with sort of developing resources for the treatment court practitioners who are in the courts each and every day, and the ones who are on the ground doing the work that we're supporting. And I think it's important that we communicate, we develop our own IMC plan that we communicate the resources that we have so that they can have access to that information and content, that helps them do that job better.

And in the long run, I think it's important for us to deliver content on topics like this, because this is an important initiative and the word needs to get out there on the good that treatment courts are having on the communities around the country. And-

Jeanne Persuit:

I think that also brings us to though, why do we do this? I do think we have to address, clearly we know why the NDCRC?

Ben Yerby:

Right.

Jeanne Persuit:

We are a TTA provider, we're funded, we have deliverables. We have certain things we have to be doing in service of our-

Ben Yerby:

Right.

Jeanne Persuit:

Of our grantor and also our audiences, and our stakeholders. But other than feel good stories-

Ben Yerby:

Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:

Why bother to do this as a treatment court or a drug court? And that's really where you need to start thinking about a bigger picture of resources.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

And how do you get... so one of the aims of IMC, according to Kitchen and de Pelsmacker is to change behavior, not just attitudes.

Ben Yerby:

Right.

Jeanne Persuit:

And so really asking yourself, "What's the behavior we want to change?" And that should be very natural for a drug and treatment court, because you're talking about behavioral change.

Ben Yerby:

Right.

Jeanne Persuit:

You're talking all the time about behavioral change. So we're trying to get people's behavior to change. So I know one of the things that we had talked about with Christie and Kristen was how do participants find out about treatment courts?

Ben Yerby:

Right.

Jeanne Persuit:

And so when you think about that, well, it's referrals. Referrals come from law enforcement judges, probation officers-

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

Lawyers. So those are all different audiences. They may be all lumped into the criminal justice system-

Ben Yerby:

Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:

But those are different audiences that use different areas to get their information, and to make decisions about their behavior.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

And the ideal would be, again, talk to Dr. Lanier and Dr. DeVall, their ideal is that all criminal justice practitioners would know what's going on and be well versed in the treatment court programs and their jurisdiction, because if you don't know how it works or what you have, then how do you know to refer anyone to that? And so, that includes eligibility criteria, how the program's structured, how it operates. There's really, that's part of what the NDCRC does is provide research, evidence based.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative) Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:

Information for people to be able to improve their practices. And so we would want to think about, well, how do you communicate? How do you communicate with defense lawyers? How do you communicate with prosecutors? Wat are the ways in which they get their information?

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

Judges, where do they connect? Where do they communicate? How do we get law enforcement understanding the eligibility criteria and how we refer someone into treatment courts?

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

So those are questions you have to... that if you're doing the communication function for a treatment court-

Ben Yerby:

Right.

Jeanne Persuit:

Hopefully you know the answers.

Ben Yerby:

Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:

Because you can't write a plan unless you know the answers to those questions, and it may be branching out. It may be saying, "Okay, we always get referrals through this person." Well, how can we leverage then that person to talk to other people and say, "Hey, this is a really good program?"

Ben Yerby:

Right.

Jeanne Persuit:

So I think one of the things that is confusing about an IMC approach, but also really helpful, you don't need to be buying ads.

Ben Yerby:

Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:

Yeah. You don't need to be sponsoring social media content. Granted, if you have social media, there are some courts that do have their own social media accounts.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

But what you don't want to have in social media is an account that's posted once in two years.

Ben Yerby:

Yeah. Right.

Jeanne Persuit:

Because that actually detracts from your credibility. So if social media, you know that this isn't going to happen.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

This is too hard to keep up with, then it's okay.

Ben Yerby:

Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:

Because I think there are a lot of other ways in which you can get communication information out there.

Ben Yerby:

Right. Well, and I think it's important to know also, as a practitioner, you probably have a good understanding of the audience that you serve. And with that information, you may be able to dial in on a specific channel that you would communicate. If you're working at a juvenile court, you're probably going to be utilizing social media more than you would for somebody who is beyond that age, just because the way it is, and younger individuals tend to engage in more social media activity than older individuals, I guess, and-

Jeanne Persuit:

Watch it.

Ben Yerby:

Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:

With demographic and psychographic, how people behave is something that's important.

Ben Yerby:

Right.

Jeanne Persuit:

And we do see who follows us on social media and who we follow. There's some judges that are really active on social media, want to be engaged in that way, are reaching out, are really using that to communicate. And then there are probably judges that do not have a Twitter account, who are not trying to do that.

If it's an elected judge, one of the other things we noticed because we're pulling the media coverage from November and December-

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

Is that November is election season. And so much of the coverage was about the judges and district attorneys who were elected-

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

To these roles in treatment courts and drug courts. So there's also a cyclical nature to... we're not going to see that kind of coverage again for another year or two, whenever the election cycle comes up.

So if you have a new judge, that's an opportunity to introduce the judge to the community. And perhaps that's pitching to your local media, pitching a profile on the judge, or having the judge down for an interview. You have to have people who are comfortable with some media, who might have to do some media coaching.

Ben Yerby:

Right.

Jeanne Persuit:

So we might have to think about what are the messages? I have many friends who are journalists and who are great people, but if I'm speaking on behalf of an organization, I know that they're not my friends.

Ben Yerby:

Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:

They're the media. They're not there to be... They're there to do a job that we want them to do, that we don't function as a democracy without. So we want them to do their job, but that also means that you have to think about the best way to communicate a point.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

And that's where we really want to tell stories with data.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

So one of the things that we've done at the NDCRC is create the interactive map, which we're so proud of.

Ben Yerby:

Yes we are.

Jeanne Persuit:

And we keep building it out, and so there's so many cool things that we can do with it. But one of those things is to look in your county, in your state, and to see how many treatment courts they're operating, along with a whole lot of other data that's in there. And that kind of data can be used to tell the story to a journalist.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

And that kind of data can be used as well, persuasively to get referrals from your audience, from your law enforcement, from lawyers, from wherever. That means that there is some comfort zone. So if you're like, "I'm not doing social media."

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

There's other ways.

Ben Yerby:

Yes.

Jeanne Persuit:

And I talk a lot about media relations, but the courts are a beat. So there usually is someone who is at the courthouse covering.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

Covering that beat. So getting to know that person is a good thing because you can pitch things and they won't always be picked up, but you have someone. And then that person may call if they need context or background or a quote, that if you feel comfortable with giving, you could do that.

Ben Yerby:

Right.

Jeanne Persuit:

So there's definitely a local angle to this.

Ben Yerby:

Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:

But having that data in your back pocket to be able to tell a story is really, really important.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

And so maybe Ben, talk a little bit about our interactive map.

Ben Yerby:

Yeah. I think we've sort of talked about heavily in the first part of this, people who respond to emotional stories and the human aspect to it. And there are those that also sort of lean towards responding in a way that is geared towards more data oriented and numbers and funding, that type of thing.

And so of all the resources that we have, one of the major ones that we've produced over the last year-and-a-half is the interactive map. And basically, it's a comprehensive, interactive experience that delivers data that we have gathered across different organizations, the FBI Uniform Crime Report, United States Census, SAMHSA Data.

Jeanne Persuit:

SAMHSA Data, Highway-

Ben Yerby:

National Highway-

Jeanne Persuit:

Traffic Safety.

Ben Yerby:

Traffic Safety, along with a couple others. And that data together has proven to be really powerful because those data help inform a specific demographic and story about a community. And so that information together can help you define the work that a treatment court is doing within that community and help you, whether you're trying to get funding through your grant writing, which we also have resources for.

Jeanne Persuit:

Yes.

Ben Yerby:

And also just help show the impact that you're having on the community.

Jeanne Persuit:

I think that brings up a really good point about this is also IMC... To me, grant writing is an IMC exercise.

Ben Yerby:

Right.

Jeanne Persuit:

Because you're making a case for why your story and your brand, and what you're doing with your community is worth funding.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

And that's something that... so Ben brings up an... I'm trained as a rhetorician and he loves when I pull out rhetoric things, but a very basic, Aristotle had said, "There's three modes of persuasion, ethos, pathos, and logos." And so pathos is appealing to emotion, which is where we get that response to a graduation story. Ethos is appealing to credibility, so that's where convincing someone appear to refer a client to a treatment court.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

So that's where your opportunities may be to present... People are always looking for speakers to have at local bar association events or law enforcement conferences. There are a lot of opportunities to... and there will be more so after, but they're people who are trying to negotiate this right now.

So trying to figure out a way to reach those people, often there's professional associations and education that can go on there. And that's something that if you have someone who is really comfortable with public speaking, is comfortable with that kind of educating, then that's a great opportunity to tell the story of your court.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

To try and persuade, but also inform and persuade, rhetoric's both of those things. And so to try and really have that credibility of working in a treatment court, and then working with a group of people who are there for a reason, for education or for professional development, that's an appeal to ethos and that credibility. And so that's another way you can think about this, telling the story of your courts. And then finally we have... which is what the map does, we have logos. So we have appeal to logic or data.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

And so generally, people are persuaded by all three, but in certain things, they're more persuaded by some things than others.

Ben Yerby:

Right.

Jeanne Persuit:

So that's where you have to decide, if everything's an emotional appeal, then you could go too far into playing on people's emotions too.

Ben Yerby:

Right.

Jeanne Persuit:

You get into some ethical challenges. If you're only looking at logic and data, then you forget that human element and that sometimes, and so that can be an issue. If you're only appealing to ethos, then what if the credibility of the speaker... which really Aristotle said, it's in the credibility of the speaker, what if the speaker's credibility is harmed by something that happens?

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

So there's a crisis or a misstep, or a scandal, or something like that, which granted, is awfully dramatic to think about-

Ben Yerby:

Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:

In this podcast. But in the reality of our world right now, is that news travels fast. And so you really have to make sure that your spokesperson has that credibility to speak on your behalf.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

And so I think that there are a lot of judges that take on that role. It seems that when you want to start a treatment court, that's one place where you can go, is to our interactive map, just to see what kinds of courts are in your area and jurisdiction.

A lot of times, when we see like judges are honored, that's another area in media coverage. Judges are honored for their role in creating a treatment court or maintaining or expanding, or something like that. But I also don't think you should depend on a charismatic judge if you don't have that.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

You still have opportunities to find ways to communicate with these different audiences. So your Probation Officers, how do you talk to them? How do you talk to treatment centers and facilities? How are you talking to everybody that you can think of that should know about the treatment courts in your jurisdiction? And how you get referrals and what the eligibility criteria, and all those things.

And if no one knows that, so if everybody on your team doesn't know that, then maybe you start with some education to make sure that everybody on your team, so that you never know who you will run into that might be a good opportunity to talk about treatment courts and drug courts.

So the good and bad thing is that some of the traditional ways in which we think about promotion, advertising-

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

Big campaigns, is really not what's effective in this, in a lot of arenas, but I would say in this arena as well, but also thinking about your accomplishments. Is there an annual report type thing you can do? Is there some sort of summary of data that you're probably already doing anyway for reporting purposes, but can you make that into a more compelling story? Can you find someone who has some graphic design background? Can you get some good pictures and can you do a brochure?

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative) Right.

Jeanne Persuit:

So thinking about how you can equip people when they go out to talk about these things, with something to be able to hand to them or a website, all of those things tie together. So now you can start thinking of, "Well we would maybe really need a brochure or a fax sheet, that might be really helpful."

Then you need to assemble your facts and maybe NDCRC can supply you with some, NADCP has some great toolkits for a lot of different events. That's always good. So if you're at a veteran's treatment court, you should definitely... November is Veteran's Day, Month.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

And so think about those things that are coming up and that are evergreen as well.

Ben Yerby:

Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:

So it does require a lot of thinking through.

Ben Yerby:

Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:

So [inaudible] Aristotle said, "Rhetoric is the art of persuading," and choosing the best way to persuade in any given case.

Ben Yerby:

Right.

Jeanne Persuit:

Which I just butchered that quote. So hopefully no one... my rhetorician professors didn't listen to that. So you have to use multiple ways to communicate with people because-

Ben Yerby:

Right.

Jeanne Persuit:

People are persuaded differently. And I also just want to emphasize that we just don't persuade on people. We're not manipulating people to do our bidding.

Ben Yerby:

Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:

So sometimes rhetoric gets that bad rap. And of course, it can happen. That can definitely happen if you're versed in persuasion. But the idea is that you're working with people to create new meaning and to create new understanding.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

And so that's just something really important to understanding this, that you're not just trying to gain people into doing what you want them to do.

Ben Yerby:         
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit: 
Because that's not really ethical at all.

Ben Yerby:
Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:
So that's not good.

Ben Yerby:
So we kind of talked a lot about using IMC to inform individuals about what treatment courts are, how they can become, how can they be referred, telling their stories of treatment courts specifically. How does IMC come into play when we are faced with the challenge of communicating with the skeptics of treatment courts?

Jeanne Persuit: 
So there are definitely, as with... we don't deal in absolute truths.

Ben Yerby:
Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:
That's philosophy's realm. And also, that's not what we're dealing with. We're dealing in reality and making decisions with the best information we have at hand. And so yes, are individual people going to have different experiences that may frame the way they look at a bigger picture? Of course, that's who we are.

I think that you can get too far down into the individual when it comes to this, that you need to think about this. And part of rhetoric's argumentation is thinking about what are the arguments that are being made and how do we refute those arguments? We may not win. Now, that sounds like a zero sum game, like we either win or we lose the arguments.

Ben Yerby:
Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:  But sometimes the issue is even knowing where the arguments are sitting. So if we're thinking it's about funding, but it's really about efficacy, then you're having two different arguments. And you're not going to... if you just keep talking about, "Well, if we had more funding, if we had more funding," and the argument about efficacy is, "Well, do they work? Do they work?"

Ben Yerby:
Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:
Those are two different arguments that you're going to need two different sets of evidence backing claims. All of those things that are really helpful to make an argument, but you have to identify that. So you just can't, just because it's like, you can't use the same solution every time.

And I would also say that, so you have to kind of identify that, is this really an argument about efficacy? When it's really an argument that comes from maybe a distrust of authority.

Ben Yerby:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:
Or a concern about personal responsibility. So what are those things that people are making arguments against that you're hearing, that you can find ways to bring forth evidence that will help us all towards understanding?

Ben Yerby:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:
So if we can get away from the came close to like, "So help you win," really in understanding. And that's where I think that NADCP, NDCRC, our other... TLPI and CCI, which these are all acronyms that you can find on our website and these organizations, but you really have to find where the locus of these arguments are.

And once you do that, and we're pretty aware of the landscape-

Ben Yerby:

Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:

Now you have to fit the persuasion to the argument.

Ben Yerby:

Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:

So we do have data that these work.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

The challenge that we always have, especially in the academic realm, is translating that data to a story that resonates.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

So when your only story is graduation rate, you might need more than that.

Ben Yerby:

Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:

So that's where, if your main... and I keep pushing on that, but if your main source of getting your information out there is covering graduations, then you've got to... there's a lot of opportunity to push beyond that. And so, that's what really helps to also put a Google Alert in for drug court coverage in your area, because you really need to see how the media sets an agenda, it's called the agenda setting theory, literally. But it doesn't necessarily say how we think about something, but it frames what we talk about.

So if you're noticing a lot of negative media coverage, not only of treatment courts, but of substance use disorders-

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

Then you've got to find a way to introduce a different argument or a different frame that people can think through this.

Ben Yerby:

Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:  So if all the coverage is about opioid use or all the coverage is about DWIs or DWI courts, and DUI courts, if all the coverage is negative about that, then there's an opportunity there to provide a solution.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

That sounds like a lot of work.

Ben Yerby:

Yeah. I'm sure it's.

Jeanne Persuit:

So that's where you can maybe rely on what other people are hearing... what you're hearing from people.

Ben Yerby:

Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:

Are you hearing that this is good? And you can look at your own results and say, "Well, if one of the arguments is this doesn't get results, so we first of all have academic, we have studies that show that there are good results." And so NDCRC can help you with that because we have that information on our website. We have a lot of things that we can provide you with and just email us, and we will be happy to you help you out. That's why we're here.

So one of the things, and this is yes, IMC for NDCRC, but if you don't know where the resources are, then we have them for you. So NADCP also has some really great resources on more specific practice, but also some of the... they keep an eye on the political understandings of what treatment and drug courts are.

Ben Yerby:

Sure.

Jeanne Persuit:

But I think that you have to be prepared and you also have to be, dare I say, levelheaded about it. You've got to be strategic and think about... if there's haters, there's some people that are just going to be haters no matter what. You don't need to persuade them because they're not the people you're trying to persuade.

Ben Yerby:

Right.

Jeanne Persuit:

But if one of your people that's really not into it is the mayor of your town, then you need to figure out a way to strategize with your team and find out, well, how could we maybe move the needle on this?

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Jeanne Persuit:

Because we need some buy-in-

Ben Yerby:

Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:

From multiple places, especially if you're looking to establish a new court, a new treatment court program. So if you're looking to do a veteran's court program, then you need data to support that, but you also are going to need some... you might need some personal testimony from a veteran that has gone through the veteran treatment court program.

You might need some... that's where the ethos, you might need some credibility there, pathos of definitely people understand the sacrifice that veterans have made. So how does this translate into having a veteran's treatment court?

So just thinking about even that, if you're looking to establish a new court program, what are ways in which you can persuade? And we definitely have the resources at NDCRC to support that kind of-

Ben Yerby:

Definitely.

Jeanne Persuit:

Advocating for resources and funding, and new courts and things like that. So it's a lot of... in PR and corporate comm we call it, you're scanning the landscape. So it's very much an environmental scan of what is going on. So as hard as that can be, when you're in the day-to-day of the function of your treatment court, you do need to scan and see what's going on-

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

Beyond what's happening in your courtroom, in your program, because then you'll be better equipped for what might happen, for something that might come up. And that might be an opportunity, might be a crisis, might be some way in which you need to have some communication prepared to be able to deal with these situations that come up.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative) Before we go, is there anything else you would like to share with our listeners?

Jeanne Persuit:

I do think that I can say, as much as being a professor who teaches communication studies, students who want to do this for a job, and Master's in integrated marketing communication students, that everybody has a responsibility to communicate responsibly. So even if your background is not in communication, there are a lot of people out there who are working in communication roles that their background, they weren't educated in communication studies, or they don't have a Master's in IMC or something like that.

And that's okay because there are a lot of resources out there that can help you and we can point you to some of that, but it does need to be something... I don't think you need to be... this is the total opposite of what... as someone who runs a Master's in IMC program, but you do have to take time to do it. And that's where I really push the valuing of communication.

So you have to value this enough. You may not be able to be like us and hire an IMC specialist-

Ben Yerby:

Right.

Jeanne Persuit:

Which we need. We need this role to be a specialized role because it's so important. And so you may not have that ability to hire a specialist, but you do need to take it seriously as a function. So thinking that in mind, you might want to think about, "Well, what's some training that I need to do? Or what are some things I'd like to learn how to do better?"

I feel like I might do this out of instinct and it's like job number 1,223 on top of everything else I have to do. It is worthwhile to carve out the time and effort to maintain your communication plan and to build your skillset because the harm it could do not knowing kind of how to do some of these things, and we are interested in doing some trainings in the future-

Ben Yerby:

Right.

Jeanne Persuit:

On specifics. So we mentioned writing press release, media training. That's something that we can provide.

Ben Yerby:

Right.

Jeanne Persuit:  But what we can't provide is kind of the understanding that you do need to make a commitment to communicating the story of your treatment court, in a strategic way that gets evaluated for success. What are your measures of success? How do you know you're successful? Maybe it's something, will we get more funding? Maybe we get more clients. What are some measures that you know you'll be successful with your communication? But there is a process to it. It isn't just a bunch of ad hoc tactics that you pull out whenever someone's like, "Oh, we should do that."

So that's the one thing I would want to make sure we leave with, is that it is a function. It's research, planning, action, and evaluation. That's pretty much how every communication plan goes. If you're going to do it, you need to take it seriously and find some time to be able to do it. And that may require some convincing of others on your team who don't see it as pressing a need as all the other services you provide in treatment courts.

So if there's anything that our audience can think of that wants and you want to send it to us, we are happy to... we want to serve our stakeholders and our audiences.

Ben Yerby:

Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:

So we're unique in that we have this IMC capability, this understanding of integrated marketing communication, which granted, if you hear marketing and that makes you a little... it's just what the name is.

Ben Yerby:

Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:

IMC is a bad name for IMC, but the ability to... I want to learn more about this topic that Ben and I can can design. If social media is something you're really interested in and you have buy-in, we can advise you or put together a training on social media.

Ben Yerby:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jeanne Persuit:

And work with our social media coordinator, Kayla Cox, to develop that. So we want to be able to help you in meaningful ways so that you can be successful. That's what the NDCRC's mission is, is supporting you and your work so you can be successful. So definitely, give us a ring.

Ben Yerby:

Exactly. Yeah.

Jeanne Persuit:

Email us, and we will be happy to talk through what you need. Is this a training? Is this a resource? Is there some specific thing? What can we work with you on? So we're happy to develop that.

Ben Yerby:

For sure.

Jeanne Persuit:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ben Yerby:

Very cool. Well, thank you Jeanne for joining us today.

Jeanne Persuit:

Thank you, Ben. It's a pleasure to be here.

Ben Yerby:

Always, always. To our listeners, thank you for listening. It was a pleasure to be your guest host today for the Justice To Healing Podcast, and we look forward to hearing from you. If you have any input or questions about what we talked about today, feel free to drop us a line on the Justice To Healing discussion board.

And to our listeners, we thank you for listening and we hope you enjoyed the show. Be sure to hit subscribe, stay updated on the podcast. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn to stay engaged with us, and check out our website, ndcrc.org. Thanks again. Catch you next time on Justice To Healing.

The Justice To Healing Podcast is presented by the National Drug Court Resource Center, and was supported by the grant number 2019-DC-BX-K002 awarded by the Bureau of Justice Assistance, which also includes the Bureau of Justice Statistics, the National Institute of Justice, the Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention, the Office For Victims of Crime, and the SMART office. Points of view or opinions in this podcast are those of the author, and do not necessarily represent the official position or policies of the United States Department of Justice.