Dr. Christina Lanier:
Welcome back to the Justice to Healing Podcast from the National Drug Corp Resource Center. I'm Dr. Christina Lanier, one of the co-directors of this center. And joining me is Dr. Kristen DeVall, the other co-director.

Dr. Kristen DeVall:
Hello.

Dr. Christina Lanier:
We are excited to have our guest join us remotely today from Alexandria, Virginia, to talk to us about the concept of Recovery Capital. We want to welcome Susan Broderick, the Program Director of the National DA's Association. Welcome, Susan.

Susan Broderick:
Hi, excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Christina Lanier:
Oh, we're very excited to have you. So before we jump into the topic of Recovery Capital, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your work and your career?

Susan Broderick:
Sure. I started my career as a prosecutor in the Manhattan DA's office back in 1989. And I knew as a child growing up, I grew up in a family, both my parents were alcoholics, but I had a grandmother who was involved in politics who was way ahead of her time, and she'd take me down to Washington, DC. And so ever since I was a little girl, I always said, "When I grow up, I want to be a lawyer and that's [inaudible 00:01:15]." And it was funny because, I was not comfortable around lawyers. In fact, my father hadn't graduated college, but my grandmother, she didn't bring any of that up, but just said, "You can do whatever you put your mind to." And I was like, "Okay, I'm going to be a lawyer and eventually live in Washington, DC." So it was really something that I felt in my soul.

Susan Broderick:
And I went to law school and, like I said, I started in the DA's office, 1989, and I was there for 14 years. It was really the most incredible opportunity, really, to serve victims. I was very much about wanting to help people, and I feel like sometimes people get the wrong idea about prosecutors, and it's like, "Oh, you just want to send people to jail." It's like, "No, I want to help turn things around and make things better."

Susan Broderick:
And so I started out with some minor cases, and then eventually I was in the domestic violence unit and then the sex crimes unit. I was also in the homicide bureau, and then it was actually after a big homicide that Morganthal, who was the DA, called me into his office and he said, "Congratulations on that conviction, and I'm going to put you in charge of child abuse." And I was like, "Oh, my God, that's a promotion?"

Susan Broderick:
And I have to say that the three years that I spent as the Deputy Chief of child abuse in the family violence unit were three of the best years of my life, because I really got a chance to see how resilient children are, and seeing kids coming from some really bad situations, but really overcoming that adversity.

Susan Broderick:
So eventually in 2003, I decided to pursue my dream of living in DC. So I took a position with National District Attorneys Association. And for a few years, I was a senior attorney and working on child abuse issues. And then there was a opportunity to be the director of the juvenile prosecutor program, so I took that on. And then in 2008 there was an opportunity to go over to Georgetown, so I went over to Georgetown. 10 years at Georgetown, and I think the clearest thing that came from Georgetown is that I am not an academic. I'm a practitioner and I'm a prosecutor at heart, because I do, I believe in justice. I believe in fairness. I want to help the victims. I want to help offenders learn to change their behavior and so that they don't have to continue in the downward cycle of those crimes, and very often what I saw was addiction.

Susan Broderick:
And in 2019, I actually went back. And so now I'm back at the National DA's Association, and I'm working on the juveniles work as well as a lot of work around professional wellbeing. So that's really more really to the personal side of my life. So while I was the Deputy Bureau Chief in Manhattan, it was actually July 15, 2001 that I went to my first AA meeting. And it was because, once again, I had humiliated myself the night before because I drank too much. And it's something that I knew for years that I drank differently from other people, but I often pass it off as, "Well, I can't be an alcoholic because I'm a prosecutor in the Manhattan DA's office."

Susan Broderick:
One of my best excuses was that I didn't have a DWI, but I didn't have a car in Manhattan, so that was a lame excuse. But it served me for a while. Well, I know as a fact that there's a lot of people who will make all sorts of excuses, because they don't want to admit that they have a problem because of the stigma associated with addiction. And so when I went to my meeting, I did it really out of desperation, because it was really like the straw that broke the camel's back.

Susan Broderick:
So when I came down to DC, I was pretty, I didn't tell a lot of people I was in recovery. But then I got involved in a project, and it was 2010 and it was about adolescent treatment and recovery. And I went to a conference in Baltimore, and there was a professor there from Harvard, named Don Kelly. And I always joke that I could get attached to of the date of December 10th, 2010, because that was the day that changed my life, because Don Kelly was speaking about the justice system and the motivational fulcrum that it can provide for so many people who come into the justice system with a drug or alcohol problem. And it's that initial leverage of the law that helps people to initiate the change.

Susan Broderick:
And I'm coming up on my 20-year anniversary in AA and I have yet to meet anybody who came in because things were going great, but I've met a ton of people who've come in because they got in trouble, either because of a DWI or something involving their behavior when they were using drugs and alcohol. And so for a lot of people, that consequence of a referral to the justice system can be a turning point in their life. And so one of the things John Kelly was just really a visionary in the field, because most people were just completely focused on treatment and just focused on the problem and not talking about the bigger view of looking at solutions as well. And as a former prosecutor, that's really how I would approach cases. I wanted to find a solution that would be fair and just for everyone involved.

Susan Broderick:
And so I started working with John Kelly, and it was some time after ... He created the recovery [inaudible 00:07:24], which I encourage people. It's www.recoveryanswers.org. And I went up for the opening luncheon, and afterwards John and I went out for coffee. And I said to him, "I think it's wonderful that you are devoting your research to recovery." And I said, "But I can tell you right now that my own recovery is a miracle." And I said, "I drank alcoholically for probably since the beginning when I first picked up a drink, and I haven't had a drink since my first meeting."

Susan Broderick:
And so to me, that's spiritual. It's a miracle. And he very politely just smiled at me, and he said, "Well, it could be part miracle, but you could also have high recovery." And so I started looking into recovery capital, and I realized that [inaudible 00:08:25]. So since that time, I have been very passionate about speaking about recovery capital, bringing recovery capital across the justice system to prosecutors, judges, probation, anybody and everybody, because I believe it is a concept that really can turn lives around in a positive way.

Dr. Christina Lanier:
That's great. I think sharing your story and recognizing that the recovery process looks different for different folks. So having some context for how you came to where you are today in your work, that's always helpful. So thanks for sharing.

Dr. Christina Lanier:
Can we go back a little bit, Susan, and talk about what is recovery capital?

Susan Broderick:
Yeah. So recovery capital, quite simply, it's just really the strengths and the assets that helps to both initiate and sustain recovery. And the research, it actually all stems from two researchers named Granfield and Cloud. They did a study, and it was looking at people who had experienced natural recovery. So it was people who had had a problem and then were able to resolve that problem without resources, going to treatment or things like that. And so what they found was when they studied that group of people is that there were particular strengths and assets that when you have them, they help with recovery. And the good thing is that really everybody possesses these qualities, but some people have lower amounts. And so the wonderful thing about recovery capital is that everybody has it and it's dynamic. So if you're low in one area, then you can build it up.

Susan Broderick:
Generally, there's three different areas. So there's the personal capital, the social capital, and then the community capital. And the personal is really looking at your individual strengths and assets, looking at your personality, looking at your self-esteem, and just your personal qualities. So like, in my case, I was lucky because I was pretty headstrong. And I did ... Like I said, my grandmother taught me that anything you wanted to, if you put your mind to it, you can do it. So I was pretty tenacious, so I had that working in my favor.

Susan Broderick:
And in terms of social capital, again, those are very often the friends, family members, and peers that you have to support you. So in that instance as well, I had incredible support. Both my parents, while they were alcoholics when I was a child, they had both gotten sober as well. So they were very supportive. My friends, some of my friends were like, "You're not an alcoholic. I drink the same amount that you drink." And I'm like, "Whatever." But any friends who I told who weren't, they were just like, "Wow, that's awesome."

Susan Broderick:
And then in terms of community capital, I had, I mean, in New York City, there's AA meetings 24/7, and it was just so accessible. And then I started getting into other activities that, which I had always been going to the gym. But really doing other things. I actually started yoga after I got sober. But it truly is a way that it's very complementary to my sobriety. So that's generally what ...

Susan Broderick:
So recovery capital, again, there's three areas. And recognizing that while everybody has it, and especially we see, like when we're working with people in the deep end of the system, very often they have lower levels of capital around sometimes educational issues, sometimes vocational issues. So the key is working on building those up and having those serve as the scaffolding to building their personal account.

Susan Broderick:
So my idea is that what if we use that leverage of the justice system in a positive way? What if we use that leverage and start looking at people's recovery capital, start looking at using that referral as a turning point to help them get back on track?

Susan Broderick:
So I was writing a paper called Love, Hope, and Random Drug Tests, and I kept coming across the research of Professor David Best. And he is a criminologist in the UK who looks at the parallels between recovery from addiction and desistance on the family. And in all honesty, I had no idea what the word desistance, and I had to look it up, because I don't have a degree in criminology. I like to say I have a PhD in life, and I was like, "Okay, reduce recidivism. I get it, and it makes sense to me," because once they both are processes that involve a great deal of pain. And so getting sober and getting out of the justice cycle very often involves changing people, places, and things in your life.

Susan Broderick:
My new goal in life is to bring the concept of recovery capital across the justice system, because I believe at every single intersection point, there are opportunities to look at an individual's recovery capital, measure it, identify the barriers, identify the low points, and then also build it, because the great thing with recovery capital as compared to financial capital, like financial capital, you use it, you lose it. With recovery capital, the more you use it, the more you build, because it generates more.

Susan Broderick:
And so me, I love this concept because it not only made sense to me when I was reading it, but I experienced it and I know it's true. And I do think that this is something that the justice system really needs right now. And especially because with everything going on in last year, and I'm just hearing more and more people turning to drugs and alcohol because of the isolation, because of the despair of what's happened in our country. So it seems really nice to be able to offer a glimmer of hope.

Dr. Kristen DeVall:
Susan, that was a wonderful description of recovery capital and really provided the listener with a good foundation of what exactly recovery capital is. Could you provide us an example, maybe a practical example, of how at one of those intercepts that you mentioned, police, prosecutor, any of those, could use recovery capital or implement the concept?

Susan Broderick:
Sure. So there's actually a number of ways to do it. So there are some schools out there. The Assessment of Recovery Capital, the ARC, which is about, I think it's 100 questions. And then David Best has actually created it's called the [inaudible 00:15:56], so that is not only a tool to help measure, but then it also, based on the answers to the questions, it creates sort of like a care plan for probation or whoever will be overseeing the case, and then it also allows for continuing evaluation and updates.

Susan Broderick:
So there's different ways. You can use one of the tools either in VA diversion program, in a drug court. Like I said, with a recovery program, when when people are getting ready to leave prison and return to the community. The other way, and I think this is a way that probably will appeal to a lot more people, because I think people, especially in the justice system, are getting tired of so many tools, so many assessments, so many screenings, and it's like, "You know what? Don't ask me to do another screen here or another assessment because we're already at ..."

Susan Broderick:
So one of the things we're doing is discussing these concepts more broadly. So talking about recovery capital, the three components. What are the different things you're going to be looking for along with other recovery oriented programs and practices? So one of the things that David and other recovery researchers have found is the importance of a sort of linkage. And I know that in a lot of programs, there are recommendations made to attend community programming or self-help groups and things like that. And in one of David's studies, he found that the general practice, he hands people a flyer or a brochure about a program, and then that's it. And in the study he did, he measured people who are just given a flyer versus those who actually had somebody actively help them identify to go to and often go with them to that meeting.

Susan Broderick:
And in the results of that study was that the people that were just given the flyer or the brochure, none of them went, and the people that had that active linkage, 100% went. So again, these are just pretty intuitive, simple concepts that make a big deal.

Susan Broderick:
And the other thing, there is a big part of this that does involve the community. And one of the discussions I overheard is the difference between illness and wellness is I versus we.

Dr. Kristen DeVall:
I like that.

Susan Broderick:
And there's so much we don't know about addiction. It's a very complex disorder and it has a lot of different components. It has a lot of different perspectives. But the one thing we know for sure about recovery is that you can't do it alone and you need that connection.

Dr. Kristen DeVall:
Right. That's great. I think what really strikes me as one of the hallmark features of recovery capital is that it really focuses on the individual level, right? We live in a culture that focuses on individual level decision-making and individual level change, which is part of the equation and part of engaging in recovery, but also recognizing the role of your social network and your peer group ...

Susan Broderick:
Absolutely.

Dr. Kristen DeVall:
... and what you can gain from that. Because we all are part of a family. We all are part of a community and a social network, and then also the role of the community. So the larger community playing a role in that as well. So I think all three of those levels are attended to within this recovery capital model, which we know from exactly what you've just described, people seeing people as humans.

Susan Broderick:
It's connections.

Dr. Christina Lanier:
Yes.

Susan Broderick:
Yep. It's connections.

Dr. Christina Lanier:
Right.

Susan Broderick:
And that was one of the things when I first stopped drinking that the relationships with these people, it was like we got each other at a very deep level.

Susan Broderick:
And one of my other favorite researchers is George Valliant. He's now retired, but he did a famous study called The Harvard Grant Study. And he looked at the trajectory of two groups of young boys who later on became men in the Boston area. And it was ... I forget how many years they did it, but it was many, many years. That's why they called it a longitudinal study. And one of his major findings in that was that for the men in that study who had drug and alcohol problem, the best treatment was AA. It was not medication. It was not hospitalization. It was AA. And I just remember thinking he measured it. He was able to prove that this really turns lives around.

Susan Broderick:
And then he wrote a follow-up book called Spiritual Evolution. And it was all about the transformative power of positive emotions. And I was like, "Yes." And so this book, it's actually, I would recommend it to anybody, because every chapter is a different, positive emotion. And I think one of the greatest things, at least I know for me, is having hope and believing that things can get better, because if you don't have hope, what's the point? And I remember even in the beginning of my sobriety, just hearing other people who were not drinking and more happy planted that little seed of hope, because for a very long time, I just had resigned myself to the fact that, "You're Irish. You drink too much. You come from a family of alcoholics. That's it." And then just being with people who didn't and realized the connection I had with them, that gave me hope.

Susan Broderick:
And I think that's part of our spirit. And I know people get nervous when they hear about spirituality, and it's not religious, spirituality. And one of my favorite lines is that religion is for people who believe and how spirituality is for people who have been there. And when I talk about spirituality, I just talk about that part of us that are alive or the part of us, like when we get excited and happy. And for me, it's driving in my car to the Rolling Stones or Bruce Springsteen. That is my spirit. And it happens when I connect with other people that I feel linked to.

Susan Broderick:
And so a lot of the definitions of addiction talk about it being it's a complex disorder with biological, psychological, and spiritual components. And so I think we have to make sure we're looking at everything, and the social component is such an important part of it. I think that's really a key point of this, that nobody does this alone.

Dr. Kristen DeVall:
Absolutely. And you hear a lot, the idea of people, places and things within recovery. And I think when we think about how do we change people, places, and things? I think the recovery capital gives case managers, probation officers almost like a framework to think about what do we mean by people, places, and things? How are we going to do that? Well, we can do that by increasing human capital, better job or higher levels of education. We can do that through changing peer groups, getting them involved in the recovery community locally, and then also engaging in more larger community wide efforts.

Dr. Kristen DeVall:
So I think what you've described in terms of this model, recovery capital model, it really is the embodiment of how are we going to address the people, places, and things that we know matter.

Susan Broderick:
Yeah.

Dr. Christina Lanier:
So I agree. And I also think what, what came to my mind was the challenge of aftercare that treatment courts and other types of things face. I mean, we hear this same statement over and over again. "We don't have an aftercare program," or, "We're not sure what to do in aftercare," or perhaps we "lose them" in the aftercare. So if we think about the recovery capital and building that up, then perhaps it will feed directly into the after care. And so therefore after care will be its own entity within the recovery capital model. I think that's just great, for sure.

Susan Broderick:
Well, especially since we're talking about chronic addiction. I mean, what other disease ... When I had breast cancer, I had follow-ups for five years after surgery. I think part of it is because addiction is still stigmatized in a sense, and the thing is that a lot of this can be done in this. You can do those recovery checkups. You can do the assertive [inaudible 00:25:42].

Susan Broderick:
And one of the things, what you were just talking about, too, in terms of those social networks, another way to work out that plan is doing social identity mapping and also having people figure out what is it that you really love to do? What brings meaning and purpose? Because we're good in support system in taking away or try to be good taking away the drugs and alcohol. But if you just leave a void, they're going to go back to drugs and alcohol, because it was doing something for them.

Dr. Christina Lanier:
Right, exactly.

Susan Broderick:
So the idea of filling that void with positive people, places, and things, activities that they enjoy that provides a new purpose. So all of this is a way to really ensure long-term recovery and long-term non-involvement in the justice system. And that's really the holy grail of the justice system is we want to turn people's lives around and get them out of the justice system so that they can have a happy, healthy life. So I just think that this is a way to do all of that. And again, a lot of it can be done collaboratively, working in your community.

Dr. Christina Lanier:
Great. Well, congratulations ...

Susan Broderick:
Thank you.

Dr. Christina Lanier:
... on coming up on your 20th anniversary, that is.

Susan Broderick:
I know.

Dr. Christina Lanier:
It's something to be very proud of.

Susan Broderick:
In some ways it feels like yesterday.

Dr. Kristen DeVall:
Right.

Dr. Christina Lanier:
That's amazing. Yeah.

Dr. Kristen DeVall:
Great.

Dr. Christina Lanier:
Susan, thank you so much. That's incredibly helpful. And so we would like to provide our listeners with essentially a call to action. Think about how you can incorporate this idea of recovery capital into whatever your position is within the treatment court and larger criminal justice system. So do you have any suggestions for how folks can learn more about recovery capital?

Susan Broderick:
Sure. Well, I think the good news is now that a lot of different organizations representing the different stakeholders are recognizing the promise and what an innovative and really solution focused concept recovery capital is. So as I mentioned, NADCP, I'm doing some work with them now. We're doing it in the juvenile courts, but they're also going to be expanding it into some of the adult mentor courts. So you can check with NADCP about the treatment court side of it. And as I mentioned, I'm also doing something at the NDAA about it.

Susan Broderick:
So if anybody's interested in learning more from the prosecutor perspective or the early intervention diversion component of it, you can reach out to me. If anybody wants to learn more, feel free to reach out. My email address is sbroderick@ndaajustice.org. And I'd be happy to tell you more about the concept. It's something that truly I'm dedicating my lifetime goal to because I know from my own experience. And that's usually the greatest way to truly appreciate something is when you experience it. And I know this to be true, and that's why I want to try to bring this across the entire justice system.

Susan Broderick:
And it looks like there's a lot of people in the justice system who are very excited about this, too. So that makes me really happy, and I'm so thrilled to be a part of this podcast today. And I'm a big fan of the work that you're doing at your center and definitely want to find ways to collaborate with everybody and anyone, because this is something that can happen with every community across the country.

Dr. Christina Lanier:
Great. Thank you so much, Susan, for joining us today. We really appreciate your willingness to share your story and then also the amazing work that you're doing around recovery capital. We think that this will really be helpful to folks in recovery and also those that are engaging with treatment court participants. So we thank you for that.

Dr. Christina Lanier:
To our listeners, thank you so much for being with us today. We hope this information regarding recovery capital is useful to you and that you can begin to incorporate this in your work. Please join us on the NDCRC.org Justice To Healing discussion board, to continue the discussion about recovery capital. Join us next month for the fifth episode of the Justice To Healing podcast and always remember to do better.

Ben Yerby:
To our listeners, we thank you for listening and we hope you enjoyed the show. Be sure to hit subscribe to stay updated on the podcast. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn to stay engaged with us and check out our website, NDCRC.org. Thanks again. Catch you next time on Justice To Healing.

Ben Yerby:
The Justice To Healing podcast is presented by the National Drug Court Resource Center and was supported by the grant number 2019-DC-BX-K002, awarded by the Bureau of Justice Assistance, which also includes the Bureau of Justice Statistics, The National Institute of Justice, The Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention, The Office for Victims of Crime, and the SMART Office. Points of view or opinions in this podcast are those of the author and do not necessarily represent the official position or policies of the United States Department of Justice.