The Impacts of Implicit Bias

Christina Lanier:

Welcome back to the Justice to Healing podcast. I'm the co-director of the National Drug Court Resource Center, Christina Lanier, alongside the other co-director Dr. Kristen DeVall.

Kristen DeVall:

Hello.

Christina Lanier:

Today's episode covers a much talked about topic, that of implicit bias. Our guest today is Dr. Eric Howard. He is the Iowa statewide problem solving court coordinator. He received his MSW from University of South Carolina and his EDD from East Tennessee State University. Welcome Dr. Howard.

Dr. Eric Howard:

Hey, thank you for having me. I'm excited about joining the Justice To Healing Podcast.

Christina Lanier:

Well, thanks so much. If we can start off the podcast today with you just telling us a little bit about the work that you do and how you got started in the field.

Dr. Eric Howard:

Well, it's actually a really interesting story. Primarily, a lot of my work has been around social work and public schools, and I was looking for a change and some judges and folks in North Carolina reached out and just said that, "Hey, you have a great community impact. And do you think you want to start building our Veterans Treatment Courts?" And so I said, "What the heck?" So I got involved and start building the first Veterans Treatment Court in Buncombe County, North Carolina. So it's probably the third Veterans Treatment Court in the state of North Carolina. And from that, it just really segued into working with different courts. And then we started working around North Carolina.

I was invited to present in NADCP about how we market and build Veterans Treatment Courts. And so I just really got into it and it really fit... Problem solving courts and drug courts really fits into the public education model, because education and the criminal justice system seems a little... It's seamless. It merges on many different levels and data points. So I just got really into it and really interested in it. And then an opportunity actually talking to the great Yolanda Woodhouse out there in North Carolina.

She said that I should give it a shot on the state level and so Iowa had a position open, and I went for it. And so I've been here a year. I'm really excited because we get to build our problem solving courts from the bottom up and create infrastructure and set policies and get it as close to best practices as possible. And so I'm really excited about that and like growing the courts and building the relationships around the state of Iowa. So, so far so good, even with the pandemic. I'm all about second chances and I think this is where we can make the difference in people's lives and problem solving courts by giving folks those second chances. And if done effectively, we can expand that and give all people a good opportunity and a second chance.

Kristen DeVall:

Great. Well, thanks for sharing that. I think your work, Eric, around building infrastructure is really important both at the local level, certainly at the state level. So can you talk a little bit about what implicit bias is?

Dr. Eric Howard:

Right. So, implicit bias, thoughts and feelings are implicit, right? So these are like these subconscious feelings or stereotypes or assumptions we make about people, communities that aren't necessarily true. And it drives our decision making a lot of times. So people associate them. So to give an example, since we are talking about implicit bias, now I am an African American man or a black man, so for example, people frequently associate criminality with black people, is just an example of that. And if you take the implicit bias test, the whole core of the test is you get flashed these images and words, and you quickly hit a key and associates you with some of the negative aspects of people of color. And so, here recently, we've really started talking about implicit bias and it's really been coming to the forefront.

And I think it's to address all the disproportionate incarceration, disproportionate sentencing, lack of opportunity for problem solving courts and drug courts around the nation. It's this glaring. And so researchers and scholars have gotten together and really examined what's the core of this, and they've come up with the term and also the action of implicit bias. So it's just this underlying feeling that we execute. And it's a big problem and it's unfortunate because race is such an emotional, difficult topic. The challenge of implicit bias is people don't want to think that they're biased, right? They even use the buzzword negatively, "I'm not biased," or "I'm not racist." That's the worst thing you can say to anyone, but it's just trying to help people build and understand that that's the thing about implicit bias. You don't know you're doing it, so we got to work together to show you, "Hey, here are some things that are happening. Here are some suggestions there," and most importantly, build relationships with people who aren't like you to expand that.

Kristen DeVall:

Yeah, absolutely and we really talk about implicit bias when it comes to treatment courts and one of the things we like to do on the podcast obviously is tie this to research and you're well aware and probably some of our listeners are aware that in the research, we find that people of color underrepresented in treatment court programs. One study estimated that African Americans were underrepresented by 15 to 20%. And that's probably an underestimate compared to the arrestee, probation and incarcerated population. We also find that Hispanic and Latinx are underrepresented by 10 to 15%. So can you talk a little bit about just treatment courts specifically and how implicit bias might play out in some of those decision making points that happen throughout the treatment court process?

Dr. Eric Howard:

Sure. So one of the challenges is if we break it down and it's very likely that a lot of our practitioners in treatment courts are typically white individuals and that's not a negative, however, a lot of those folks, either in the prosecutor's office or that accept referrals or whatever, don't even consider a lot of times people of color for problem solving courts, which is really interesting and that could be for a couple of reasons. It could be because, especially black people and I'll really focus on black folks because I know that the best because I'm black... Over criminalized or overcharged or there's a lot factors that happen disproportionately to people of color where they don't even get recommended for the actual referral and the referral, meaning when their defense attorney, public defender, whoever they may have, brings it up to the district attorney to even get that referral considered.

So on the front of that, that's an issue. And I think it's because so many of our colleagues that are not black or Latino or whatever, I think sometimes I don't think they're explicitly doing it, but they just sometimes just don't consider it or they don't think it's a problem. And they don't really look at the courts as a model that, "Hey, we need to intentionally seek out or work with the public defender's office or the district attorney's office to have equity in our court referrals. And so that's a hard thing to do if you're not around to... Typically you're not around people that aren't like you. They're not in your in group. And so when that happens, it's hard to look at the broad spectrum of referrals, right? Because you're in there doing a good thing.

So when I was coordinating the court, I had a great relationship and there's a district attorney in [Buxton 00:08:41] County, Mr. Todd Williams, and working with his staff was great because I could like go to him and speak to him and he was totally open and totally [inaudible 00:08:48]. He was like, "Yeah, that's right. So, and then working with his assistants, we intentionally looked at people of color or just said, "Hey, can we consider this case? Let's look at this case,. Is this a person that we can do a second chance so that we didn't just have typical refers that people just thought was like, "Oh, this is a nice person. Let's get him to drug court." And I think there's a lot of feelings attached to it. I really do. So I had a referral front, I think it's because you just don't have that many professionals of color actually coordinating or working in treatment courts to the degree accepting referrals.

And I was just thinking too how I got into the business earlier and this is a side segue [inaudible 00:09:35] I was just thinking. I said, "How many people, or how many people of color even know that these opportunities exist as social work backgrounds or whatever." And I'm not sure that we market, and this could be an action step too, is like, I'm not sure that we market or recruit young professionals of color, especially with the social work background or whatever to come in, or they even know this is a thing. That they can affect change in the criminal justice system. So, that's another consideration as well. So I think a lot of folks just come in that are familiar that have either worked in the clerk's office or worked around criminal justice.

They see the positions and they start moving into these types of positions and those folks are typically and I'm just, I don't have any research to back it up. I'm just guessing, a professional guess that it's probably likely that these folks are white, former attorneys, or retired attorneys, something like that that just go into the profession. At least that's been my experience. Now, across the country, there is diversity. NADCP is really interesting because you see a lot of expertise and diversity with that crowd. So you see a lot of folks with [inaudible 00:10:54] background, but as it plays out... So like you take Iowa, I mean Iowas' majority white. So it's going to be a challenge here in Iowa for people to see those types of things.

Kristen DeVall:

I think the word that you said when you were talking about your experience is, intention and that word really sticks with... We have to have an intention, we have to do it intentionally. Related to the referral process, obviously we can talk about the admission process. So even if somebody does get the referral, which we know can be a tough one, getting somebody into the program.

Dr. Eric Howard:

Absolutely. So again, and like my biggest frame of reference, I haven't had a chance to really work with a lot of the county attorneys out here yet. I'm excited about doing that and building those relationships. That's one of my big goals is to build good solid relationships with the county attorneys in Iowa. And so when we talk about admission again, my lived experience is again working with Mr. Williams and in Buxton County and Mr. Williams is also a part of the innocence project. So he is new to that. So he really understands it, if I'm making myself clear. So you really need to really forge relationships as a coordinator with that prosecutor's office or have some work with those assistants. So you can almost advocate like, it wasn't always 100%.

He's, yeah, we can work with this, but if you have that relationship with those attorneys in the admission part, you can really work with these prosecutors and county attorneys and folks and for the most part I found that they're willing to work with you because I think it's fewer county attorneys and prosecutors in North Carolina are seeing this whole just, I just want to lock up everybody and send everybody to prison. And COVID really taught us that we have to really be considerate about just putting people in jail. Right. So it's just, I hate to say it, but we'll probably see something similar again and it really made folks focus and I think it really made prosecutors focus on like, "Okay, are we really going to charge this individual or can we provide some opportunity for this individual that's worthwhile?"

So that's the other thing about admission. So it has to be severe enough where the participant, the actual participant wants to actually go in to court. And then the second thing, it has to be a benefit. Now, where I don't think a county attorneys or I mean, district attorneys are going to bend much is the whole public safety piece. So, it still has to be primarily for nonviolent people with drug offenses are involved with the criminal justice system. And so again, I would say build those relationships with those county attorneys and district attorneys and humanize your client. And I think that's the big thing with implicit bias and working with individuals, especially black men, is there's a human being there, right? And if you can eloquently discuss and humanize human beings, I think people will go with that.

And I think they will be more willing to understand their own bias and work with you to help folks get into these courts and get these second chances and opportunities and at the end of the day, any good county attorney or district attorney they'll know that, "You know what? I'm going to give equal opportunity to folks because that only helps them. It really does." And when they see the success rates of people and the impact in communities, because the whole goal is reducing recidivism, right. If people can go home and have a second chance and then people see that, they can also spread the word and they can become good ambassadors to the community. So it's very important to look at the overall population and just make sure that we're admitting people of color to these courts. It's vitally important.

But I think the biggest crux of that is having a person that's skillful, that can work with attorneys and work with judges, district attorneys, county attorneys, and really advocate because advocate for people, you really have to have that person. And I did that a lot. I mean, I did that a lot with folks that had some reoccurring issues and I just like them and they showed that they were willing to change and they were ready for change. And so I mean, you have to go to bat for folks like that and if you have the relationships in place, that really is helpful.

Kristen DeVall:

Yeah, so again, thinking about continuing with the various decision making points within,

Dr. Eric Howard:

Like retention?

Christina Lanier:

Yeah.

Dr. Eric Howard:

Retention is another important piece.

Christina Lanier:

Oh, that's where I was going to go with retention. You read my mind.

Dr. Eric Howard:

Retention is, it's really interesting and I really want to build on I think your December 4th podcast with Michelle Gunn and after listening in that, because I was prepping for this podcast and I was thinking, "Wow, she really explained that whole retention piece through language and how we talk to people." And I think that is so important. And so, I'm just assuming that she was talking about all people that are involved with the criminal justice system. However, it set me back a little bit and I was like, "Wow, you really listen to her and you then say, 'Wow, what is that for black people and brown people?'" And it really set me back and it just gave a lot of clarity and it's just like, okay.

Say it's normal clients and what I mean by just normal, I guess that's not a good word to use, but our average problem solving court participant is talked to that way or called like a crackhead or use some sort of negative language so much so that their... She was discussing the woman was talking about her baby being a crack baby and all that. So the point I'm going to make is is that people of color and we kind of capsulate that into a micro aggression or micro assault or something like that and if I think back on the years that I've had, and even some of the time here about how people actually discuss the people in their court, and then it's really insulting and that impacts.

So it's like death by a thousand cuts, right? So if you start out and you're doing good, and these folks keep saying really negative or backhanded things to you, that's going to affect your retention. I mean, it's going to be a real challenge for that individual. So I think it's really important that we not only have these discussions with our clients, but that's another area we have to remember our bias, because we might be saying things coming completely from this whole bias thing where we just don't think about it. I've even had people say things to me as like, "Well, oh you, your Dr. Howard, you don't seem so ghetto." So what? I'm like, "Oh, okay." And as a person of color, we can't react in the same way because now we're aggressive.

And so it becomes a challenge and sometimes, and I'll just be point blank and I think we talked about it before too is just that people, they're just not sensitive or they're just so unaware of how they communicate with people that are already experiencing challenges in their life. And like I said, I'm a professional man and I get it and I can't imagine struggling with a disease or some issues and then having to take this because you're already feeling down, right. And then if you're a black person and then you have someone referencing you as ghetto or calling like your baby mama or something like that, it becomes a challenge and eventually you just give up and so you probably just don't want to finish that court. You just don't want to be in there.

And when you talk to people after the fact, they'll tell you. A lot of our participants, we had this great researcher. Her name is Dr. [Jamie Baska 00:19:46]. I believe she's out at Western North Carolina University and when she would do the study and follow up with clients, we really discovered a lot. One thing we learned is like, well, the prosecutor never says anything good to us in court. Or the judge is not talking to us. So it's like, you really start thinking about that when you want to retain your clients in your court and just know the people that you really have to think about your language, especially if there are people of color, because you may be saying something that's negative, or you may be saying something that's slowly pushing these individuals out of your court and not even realizing you're saying it because it's such commonplace amongst your in group and your peers.

And so, that's the other challenge that happens with problem solving courts and that bias of folks so used to making jokes amongst their peers and talking to their fellow attorneys or whatever and they don't realize.

Kristen DeVall:

I think Eric, talking about the experience of participants internalizing the language that we use and the ways in which we interact with them, these are also the professionals that are tasked with assisting and facilitating the recovery process. So not only are they struggling with their own issues and trying to overcome a substance use disorder, but also trying to balance maybe some language that is offensive. And that really undermines that process because these are the folks that are in the roles that are designed to help. So I think that's a great point.

So, could you talk a little bit about that final decision making point, which is graduation, and we know what some of the research shows around the disparities and perhaps inequities when it comes to that as well.

Dr. Eric Howard:

Right. Graduation is the biggest part, right and so I think part of that is going back to the whole point of like language and how you talk to folks during the whole retention and your phases, and then getting people to the end. And here's the other thing too that's very, I mean, it's obvious to me, but I think it's a challenge for a lot of court officials is, there's unnecessary and hard for some clients, but there's also high expectations. And I want to be very clear about this. It's been my experience that people of color often rise. If they have high expectation and people are being fair, they will rise and always meet those goals. Now there are some folks, unfortunately, in the courts, they don't use the whole high expectation model. However, they do the hard model.

And I think a lot of that is based on fear. I think a lot of folks are just fearful for whatever reason of people of color and just totally biased, or maybe some folks got into court that they didn't necessarily want to be in the court. So there's an issue and they just ride those folks and I've seen it. I've seen it in other courts and some of my colleagues and it's just really unfair and people can't really even tell you why they're doing it. You have to really work with them and [inaudible 00:23:26] "You might want to consider this. This is like a real issue. Why are you springing up extra drug screens on this person? They have shown nothing to show you or tell you that they're not trying just as hard or they're not coming back with your analysis that are not working out for them."

Right. So, there's nothing you can say about these individuals. However people do that. They will spring up the extra stuff. Or, I've seen probation officers talk a little stronger and I'm using good podcast language here. Talk a little stronger to some clients of color and it's like, when you notice that you're like, "You don't," and my role as a coordinator is like, "Look, you don't talk to these white participants like that. Please don't talk to anyone else like that. That's not high expectations. That's just being a bully." And then people just like give up or people are fragile. And that's the other piece of that too. You don't know people's life. You only know so much information of your clients.

You know a lot, but you only know so much and your language and your pushing either way can really break people and cause more harm. And as a social worker you're trying to do least harm and how you talk to people, how you work with people, if you're riding people unexpectedly or you're popping up extra drug screens, or you're just doing that extra home visit or whatever you... Whatever, can cause a relapse and cause a negative or an adverse effect on an individual, which is really sad when we see that. And people sometimes... Sometimes I think that part is more explicit, however, there is a lot of that and people don't really notice that they are treating one client worse than the other based on their race.

And sometimes you have to really tease that out of people. So, I want people to understand that the wrong thing to do is actually, you don't want to give them black and brown people. You don't want to give it to them and let them slide through court, right? You want to have high expectation, high, fair expectations of those clients. And that's what you have to look at, but you don't want to also put them in a situation where it's like, this is a little bit unnecessary or this is too much. And so you really have to consider those things to make sure people get through graduation. And I think we would see a lot of success among black and brown participants if we adopted those models, because I know one thing that I'm always searching for seeking is just respect, just mutual respect as a professional and a colleague and all that.

And I'm sure that's what a lot of our clients expect too, and they've told me. I've had clients come to me and just tell me straight up, this is how they felt, this is how they felt they were talked to. It was unnecessary. And we also have to consider too that when we see our clients or participants in the court that negative kind of idea or that bad language that people like convict, people still think, "Oh, it's a convict or an individual that's less than already. And so, that's really dangerous and it doesn't help our courts and it's not best practices. So, we have to really figure that out and you have to call it.

And if your participants come to you with a concern, take that serious. I always took that stuff serious. I always did. It was like, "Okay, may not be true, but I'm going to check it out." I'm going to check it out because they deserve that respect. And they deserve that opportunity because this is their court and that's what people have to understand. This is their court too. We are here to serve them and so if we have those types of attitudes and we have that respect for different backgrounds, cultures, and individuals, I think we fare better through this process and more people will graduate.

Kristen DeVall:

Yeah. I think Eric, you've highlighted two really important pieces, I think, to this whole puzzle, if you will. One is that we're mindful as individuals and as practitioners about the language that we use, the ways in which we fashion sanctions, the way we fashion incentives, the way that we interact with folks, but then also to examine the data around, okay, how many drug screens are participants on average being required to submit? How many incentives are folks getting, and do we see disparities across various subgroups of our population that we're serving? So I think both of those are pieces to addressing this implicit bias piece, not only internally, individually being mindful, but also looking to the data to see is there something that we're missing as a team or is there something I'm missing as a case manager, a probation officer?

So I think that's really important too and that speaks to and helps us identify what are the ways in which we can take action around best practice standard number two, which is equity and inclusion. And so remembering that drug courts and other treatment courts have an affirmative obligation to ensure that members of historically marginalized groups have an equal opportunity within these court programs. And so, can you talk a little bit about maybe some policy work given your experience? What are the ways in which policies can be written or things that we should look at with already existing policies that may help address implicit bias?

Dr. Eric Howard:

Sure. So I have a couple philosophies going on here. One of the things that I think we as a society have, we've just seen over this turbulent last year with George Floyd and Brianna Taylor and all these different issues of black people involved with law enforcement and I'm a huge supporter of a lot of groups, obviously. However, one thing that we're always miss when we talk about policy, we have a lot of people that bring voice to the issues, but the people that sit down and write the policy still don't look like us. So while we're advocating for all these changes, the policy makers are still the quiet people in the room actually drafting our policy. That's why it seems like nothing ever changes. Right. And that's just my personal philosophy.

And so here's the great opportunity that I have in the great state of Iowa currently and we are very fortunate that Todd Nuccio, our Supreme Court Justice and all those folks are huge advocates of equity and inclusion. So that supports my work. So we are currently implementing... We have our first draft of our drug court standards in section two. Immediately we are putting in... We are going to ensure the eligibility criteria of all individuals, especially historically disadvantaged groups. And that language is very familiar because it's coming straight out of the NABCP Best Practices Standard too. And whenever I communicate with different coordinators and folks around the state, I ask the question and I ask the challenges of what's going on.

And I'm pleasantly surprised to see that people just say... a lot of their responses, it's like, "Wow. We just didn't think about it." And so that's an area you can build on but people just didn't think about it, but it's like, "Well, I'm not getting well. We have some concerns with that. I'm not getting that kind of pushback." I'm just like, wow. We just really didn't think about it. And then like, I think the challenge for a lot of folks around the state here is like, "Okay, what do you do when you're 95% white? So that's not the expectation but I think people see it as proportionately, we have to have 10, at least five, or at least two.

No, it's not a number. It's if you write your policies and you advocate with your system and what I mean by system that county attorney's office, that public defender's office, if you advocate say, "Hey, we have this great program. And look, we are really looking for these type of opportunities for all these different folks and we really want to show or reflect the community, right? And so you may have one person of color, or you may have two Asian people of color, or you may have five Latino people of color, depending on the demographics. I was up in a town here recently actually getting my first dose of the COVID vaccine. And whenever I go to a town, I look up the demographics and that town was 24% Latino.

So I don't expect a higher number of African Americans in that court. I now expect a decent number of Latino people for the opportunity in that court. And so that's the thing that I can also... I can explain our policy and I think people, they find me approachable enough that I'll talk about it. And it's very important as you write policy that you're putting those things in because if you write the policy in, you're not going to have too much pushback. I think it's when you're outwardly verbalizing things, I think that's what people use as ammunition to push back and what I mean by that, if you're out there shouting loudly about a lot of these issues it makes people, I'm going to say it, it makes white people feel uncomfortable, right?

So you have to work within the policy and explain the policy and write it down. And that's what I always tell people when I do these equity inclusion trainings or whenever I do these presentations or whatever. I'm the guy that I'm listening to the people and I want to go back in the room and take that information or take the data in statistics and apply it to our actual standards or our actual policy. And I'm the guy now writing into the policy, so I'm going to get that as fair as possible and once it's in there and people, like I said, we're going to have a review committee that goes over this, and I guarantee you that when they read through it, they're going to look at and go, "Oh, well, that makes sense. That's fair."

I doubt if we have much pushback and I think that's the power of policy and I think we need to recruit more young people coming out of social work programs and education. I think we need to recruit because they want to do the sexy stuff, the advocacy stuff and not many people want to do the actual policy work because it's just not the fun and sexy type thing to do. It's like, "Oh, I'm a policy wonk. I just sit around and crush data, write policy. But that's where I think, me personally, and I found that later too, because as a younger man and social worker, I was one of those once too, that I'm just like, "I'm going to talk this thing to death and people are going to listen to me and they're just do what I say and the world's going to be a fairer place and whatever." And I was thinking like, "Why isn't nothing changing? Like I swear, I yelled out as high as I could."

Christina Lanier:

Right. Multiple times.

Dr. Eric Howard:

Yes. So, I guess as I've aged and got more mature about it, it's just like, "Okay, I feel you. I'm going to listen to those young voices and what they got. And then I'm going to combine that with research and then I'm going to put this quietly in policy and present it and explain it." And like I said, and I think when you are working with populations that are primarily white, that once you explain it and put it in policy, I don't think you get as much pushback, but if people tend to feel threatened, especially in the [inaudible 00:37:08] is if people feel threatened when you are discussing it or presenting it, it's because you probably don't have a relationship with those people too. And that's the important thing that I want to also talk about in this podcast is the importance of building relationships with individuals so that when you have to write policy and when you put it in, because you, I mean, let's face it, you're going to need white folks to help you.

I mean, at the end of the day, you're going to need white folks to help you. You put it into policy and get it through state legislation or anything else. And you can't demonize and you can't attack all the time. You have to be patient and you have to work with those individuals and build those quality relationships. And most importantly, build them with folks that have opposite opinions or politics or whatever than you do and I think those are one of the keys to building effective policy.

Kristen DeVall:

I think the other area within the treatment court environment is that of the process. Right? So case management is a big piece of the treatment court model and where a lot of the change happens with participants is in those case management meetings. So can you talk a little bit about what do practitioners... What should they be mindful of around the issue of implicit bias as it relates to case management?

Dr. Eric Howard:

Well, again, if you think about it and if you look at some social workers, for instance, I talk about that. So it's 83% female dominated profession, and of that it's typically white females in the practice of social work. Right? So, we have to really work with the case managers to actually see it. And we have to offer good training. And I'm not talking about training... I don't know if you guys have seen it, but I've just seen these trainings where you just go in and beat white people down. And I'm talking about real supportive training where you don't gloss over the real issues of our society and today implicit bias is real. Racism and issues are real. These things can happen all the time and in real time.

So you want to basically provide training that basically this is real. We're not just giving you something because we're wanting to make you feel bad or whatever, but here's a training that basically shows you why and I think it's... You have to instruct people or support people in the why's, right? So a lot of times when we do training, we don't say why. We don't say, "Okay, the history of oppression here or you might be feeling this way because listen, on the onset of the country, this, this, and this happened, so this is why we're talking about this issue. Here's the data and the research about this issue and this is why we're discussing this. And this is why it impacts problem solving courts." And furthermore, here are some strategies, right, that you can put in your self-programming to talk about implicit bias and work with individuals yourself and in your community, because you have to do it in small teams.

And when folks get around that table, it is very... I also say, try to recruit treatment folks and people on your team too that are as diverse as you can and diverse, just background, different genders, race, color, whatever because everyone has a voice. You have to have those folks around the table to give you a difference of opinion because typically our teams are mostly white. The ones that I've worked on have been mostly white. My team was all white, except for me. So, you have to really have a good group of people that you can bounce or at least open to bouncing ideas off and providing those overall services too. And people that are willing to go get it and actually help folks with services and case management, right, because that's the other big issue too, that I don't think people talk about is all these additional services and having your team effectively work with each other to provide other opportunities in housing, transportation, all these other things and recognizing that there's discrimination there or there's bias in all of the systems.

So it sounds almost overwhelming and defeating, especially for people of color, because there is so much bias in every system in our society that interconnects, but you have to have people that are open and advocates to support that. And like I said, if you're white, that doesn't mean you can't serve or really support people of color in a treatment court. That just means you have to do a little bit more work to understand your bias and understand the bias in these systems and say, "Hey Tom, Hey Sally, Hey, let me go ahead and get Eric in this halfway house and here's why.

Kristen DeVall:

Right. That's a great point around the advocacy piece, right, as a case manager, being that advocate and being aware of exactly what you just said, the biases in the systems that our participants oftentimes are... They interact with and oftentimes don't have a voice, don't have a sense of agency. Right.

Christina Lanier:

I also appreciate-

Dr. Eric Howard:

And call out some of those places too because it was my experience, and I had a wonderful career as a school social worker, right, so I already knew a lot of systems in the community and that's the other thing, man. Like, who was working with it? People like work with kids to a certain degree, but a black adult, especially African American females, I guess I should have, but I didn't realize how much negativity and stereotypes. And I'm just like, these are people that I worked with before. [crosstalk 00:44:03] I'm like, "Look, we're going to go out in this meeting and me and you're going to have a side conversation." And then I had the relationships with those people that I could have that side conversation and advocate and just say, "Hey, just FYI, the stuff you said in there is just not okay." And I think that's another way you have to deal with a lot of your white colleagues.

You can't do that stuff out in the open sometimes because you may get a really bad negative pushback or something. But if you have those relationships in place, that's something that you can either do lunch or something and this was some old bull right here.

Kristen DeVall:

Yeah, for sure.

Dr. Eric Howard:

And you really need to help this woman and her family get in this because she's in this court and this is what's happening here. And everybody's entitled to this opportunity and this second chance. And like, I don't appreciate the way that you described this mother as a welfare mama and using the system or gaming the system and why is all the black women got to game the system?How come they can't just come in here and just need some help like everybody else? You can't assume and we saw that some like in the drug court and I would assist over there too because we all work together in our specialty treatment courts in North Carolina and I hear a little bit. I hear some of that in the background in some of the calls because Iowa's interesting because they're getting a lot of new folks here.

You're getting a lot of people that are moving in from like Chicago and Kansas City and some other cities and whatever else. They're moving here and you got a large immigrant population here, which is wonderful. So beautiful. I was talking to some lovely ladies from South Sudan the other day and because I'm one of those people always ask these kind of questions. It's like, "Oh, so where the black people at?" Or "What's happening around here?" And they were telling me and they immediately... I was so shocked that immediately they went into that whole criminal justice type discussion of these things happen here and people just aren't used to having a lot of folks from different places here and this is why. I'm like, "Wow." You talk about implicit bias and these young women felt it and knew it right away. It's just like, "Ah." I mean it's awful.

And then there're these issues in that system and they talk about those system issues. And so building on that helps you to understand how people on the street level see it and react to different races. And like I said, they have an influx of immigrant populations and different things, which is wonderful because I think it's great, but sometimes it presents a challenge when you're trying to provide services or you don't understand either a language or a tradition when people going into a drug court.

And so that's another important piece on that case management too, is understanding the communities that you're serving and be open to that. Like Minnesota and some places here, you have a large like Vietnamese population and you really have to understand the cultures and how they deal with drug use and these other things and what are their family traditions and how can we get them to the services that they understand so they can be successfully retained and graduate and get good outcomes in the court? So that's one of the exciting things for me anyway, is just to like discover the different populations and migrant populations and see if they're getting admitted to the court and what we can do about that to really support these different backgrounds.

So, sometimes it's not literally just black and white, sometimes it's an ethnic language, like literal language issue or barrier or traditional and we need to respect those things when we are looking at individuals in case management. And these women from South Sudan really felt like people looked down on them because they were coming into a new place and they have their traditions and understanding the new being Iowans, so that's also a very important piece to this bias thing because a lot of times we just see it in black and white, it could be cultural as well, like understanding people's different backgrounds.

Kristen DeVall:

Do you want to talk about implicit bias in treatment, Eric?

Dr. Eric Howard:

Sure. Well, I mean that good old COVID exposed everything, didn't it? Good old COVID helped us really... It amplified a lot of the challenge we were having and just being a former or... I did therapy for a while and work with individuals in mental health challenges and some substance abuse work. And again, it's so funny, it's almost we're like getting repetitive on this podcast, because it really goes back to the people who are delivering the treatment services most likely don't look like the people that they may sometimes have to serve and the negative going back to [inaudible 00:49:45] again, is that negative language. He's a drug addict or there's some crack heads or... it's really interesting, right, and I'll go back to this.

It's like when heroin was hurting folks in New York and Oakland and all these different places, primarily people of color, wasn't such an issue, but when it really started hitting West Virginia and all these different places and you start seeing the white kids overdose and it's an epidemic, it's a challenge. "Oh my gosh, I can't believe that all this opium out here and heroin," and that's one of the bright lights of disparity, right. Bias. It's almost like the assumption is black people ask for it or they just want to go do drugs or there's not a traumatic beginning to this. And I'm happy about a couple things.

I'm happy that COVID has really amplified the health disparity. Two, people really focusing on trauma focused, right, being really in tune with the whole trauma piece because to humanize clients, I think it's easy to talk to your colleagues about trauma informed care. I think it's easy to explain those things and once people see, especially if you do the trauma, the test there, the 11 questions and you say, "Hey, I want everybody on this team to take this test and you see how trauma has that crossover and can affect just about everybody on that team. I think that really humanizes and brings home that these people aren't out here just because they want to be poor and on drugs and all these. Here are some of the factors that happen and then you can bring in the research and bring in some of the issues around drug use and the impact on black and brown communities, over policing, poverty.

So there's just so many factors and then doing that and really work with your counselors and social workers too, to say, "Hey,"... and I don't want to gloss over it, like treat everybody the same, but it's just like, you have to really open your eyes to people of color's experience. And if you don't don't know, it's okay not to know and ask, right. Build relationship or relationships with people that have experience working with these populations because I had to learn a lot like working with Southern Appalachians, I mean, I had to learn a lot.

I remember coaching football in the mask for the first time and it was just like, holy crap. I did not understand a word these people are saying to me. And I had to really do some study and build some relationships and like understand church and I visited their churches and I visited their Christmas plays. And I really immersed myself in there with that culture and try to understand it because I had to really understand where the problems are coming from and some of the traumas that were happening in that Appalachian community, which, there're nutritional issues and there's health issues and separation and isolation.

And so there's so many things that impact some of the Appalachians and their culture, but I had to learn that and I had to be uncomfortable with learning that because one, I wanted to build a relationship with these players and I needed them to trust me and no one's going to trust you in treatment or anything else if you don't try to learn what's going on in their communities. And that's something that I talked about in my dissertation as well and I wish I could release the recording sometimes in just talking to these families about their experience, because it's like, one of the themes that came out is it's clear that this system and I'm talking in regards to public education.

But it's clear that this system is not set up for us. And I can't imagine that it would be any different for the criminal justice system. And having that understanding that this system is not built for us. They don't want us here. And it's a challenge. And I think it goes a long way when you... I don't have to learn Spanish, but maybe it might serve me to learn something about Spanish culture, something that we can identify and build a relationship around.

I think that's very important. And I think sometimes our white colleagues don't understand that point. It's not like you got to immerse yourself in black culture. It's just like, hey, learn something, build some relationships and not be so offended by a way a person talks, mannerisms, because that's always a huge challenge. And for me as a black professional, I mean, we eloquently call it code switching. And so, when people... And that's hard. Every time you go in a situation, you... I automatically do it. It's just like second nature. It's like, "Oh, okay, well I got to switch to this," but understand that if we are treating people that are hurting and having challenges, the onus is on the treatment provider. The onus is not on the sick person. Like let's work... We have to acknowledge and realize that this person is sick. This person has a disease. This person is our patient.

So, we have to have that and understand that and I think that only comes in with ongoing training with your treatment provider team. I'm not sure how much you can change the demographics of that group.

Kristen DeVall:

I think one of the key things that you mentioned with training is putting it into a historical context and I think that gets missed sometimes. Like you said before, when we have some trainings, we're just kind of, "You should to do this and you should do that." But why? Why is this happening? I think that that is really... That's key understanding where we're at today. It didn't just happen, right. I mean, we were a country that was built on violence and discrimination. So of course it's going to play out in all of these systems that we're talking about still.

Dr. Eric Howard:

Absolutely. And every single one, that's what's so crazy when you're talking about implicit bias, it's so explicit in every system.

Christina Lanier:

It is.

Dr. Eric Howard:

It's like every system, any system you look at.

Kristen DeVall:

And treatment courts operating within the confines of the larger criminal justice system.

Christina Lanier:

Exactly.

Kristen DeVall:

So, how can we really do some due diligence as practitioners within treatment courts to say, we are not going to replicate the errors of, and the ways in which discrimination plays out in the larger system?

Christina Lanier:

And I think I mentioned this in a previous conversation, Eric, and going back for a moment, we've heard in conversation, "Oh, there's no reason to try to recruit people of color for these," whatever. Insert program name. "They're not interested." And that in and of itself always blows my mind. And I say, "Well, how do you know if you never ask them? How do you know if you never told them about the program?" What about, again, going back to the historical perspective that, why should I trust the criminal justice system that's not done much for me and my family and my friends and my culture throughout time? So again, it's on us to try to demonstrate why this program, again, enter any program, any system ,is going to work or could work for me.

Dr. Eric Howard:

That's right. That's right. And that's where that whole relationship piece comes in and that's where coordinators and folks that work in this system can really like, "You know what? I'm going to get myself out here and I'm going to meet different people than myself and my community and people I typically hang around so I can reach these individuals. So I can get someone to vet me to talk to different clients and to say, 'This is why problem solving courts are good. This is why this is a good opportunity.' And I respect and I understand, hey, I get it. Criminal justice system has not, in your eyes, possibly been fair. I totally understand that, but here's why you can give me an opportunity to work with you. And this is what I can commit to." And only commit to... and that's the one thing too, just commit to the things that you can actually do. Don't tell people.

Christina Lanier:

Yeah. Don't overpromise.

Kristen DeVall:

Don't over promise. I was going to say.

Christina Lanier:

Yeah, for sure.

Kristen DeVall:

That's great. Yeah.

Christina Lanier:

I mean, and we've talked about this a little bit throughout the podcast, and it sounds to me like really the take home message here of how can we, as individuals within ourselves, within others really address implicit bias? And it seems like the top issue or the top maybe solution, that might be a strong word, is these relationships too. How can we address this implicit bias within ourselves, within others?

Dr. Eric Howard:

Yeah, absolutely. So it's been like an interesting... So one thing the pandemic has really helped me. [inaudible 01:00:15] listen to a whole lot of podcasts and books. And it's interesting how through all of the movement and things that have been happening among black scholarship in regards to racism and implicit bias, I'm leaning towards the whole relationship and the practical relationship part of it, because I just really think that's the most effective approach. And we can't take, like I said, we can't take these issues and beat white folks over the head with it. And what I mean by that is, we're here and we're going to be here together. I mean, let's just make that clear.

I mean, I don't think there's going to be any less black people or any less white people or whatever else. Right. So this is the planet we have. This is the earth we have. This is the state of North Carolina or Iowa or whatever we have. This is what we have. We really need to seek to build those relationships in an effective, practical way. How can we have good outcomes and how can this affect folks as well as getting in that vital information? Because the key for me is, you need to have people open so that they can receive the information of what we're talking about and I've been in a bunch of trainings and I've been in a bunch of things. And like I said, I don't want to drag your podcast in any other direction, but I've been in a lot of situations where it wasn't exactly effective when we came in and you're sitting there listening to the program and then immediately start calling all the white folks racist and all that stuff.

It just seemed counterproductive. It just didn't seem to me, like that was effective. So I learned from that, and what I learned is, when I do work and I also work with a wonderful woman named Veronica [Gunter 01:02:32]. She also works with me on different trainings and things and we often talk about it. It's like, "Listen, this is turning people off." And there was some evidence that was showing implicit bias training and all those things. Things were getting worse or staying the same, right. And I think because of the way people approached the subject, and I also don't want to make less the real issues of racism, because that is real. And myself, I'm a victim of some police brutality stuff and that is real and it's very real to me.

However, the bigger goal also is how do we build these relationships so that we can get this information in and create allies? And I think through these turbulent last couple of years, I think we have vilified each other so much that it's made it a little bit harder for us to get to our points and advocate for what we believe in and advocate in the goals that we want to see and the outcomes we want to see. So my approach is simply, I want to seek to build relationships with different folks because I realize that you need all these different people and players and you can't go out... I don't know, I guess they call it what? Cancel culture or something like that.

You can't go out and start wiping out all your folks because you may need them in a critical situation, like problem solving court policy. You may need them to say like, if I can get this person over here that maybe sees the world way different than me, if I can get that person on my team and they can say, "You know what, I don't agree with everything, but I think Eric's okay with this. He's right with this." I can sway more people that way and it's just like the opioid policies and things like that. It really had the affect... I mean, let's just keep it real. It really had to affect white folks before in a way before we got the opportunity to serve all people.

Now the work is we have to make sure all people get treated with the same treatment services and support with that. And so, I don't know. I think my approach is moving more towards this whole practical relationship thing and not like just being so in your face with a lot of the issues because I don't even know what it is. You know what it is, right? You both know what it is. Should I hammer people with it all the time or should I build that relationship and just say, "Well, Bob, I really don't think that's true. I really believe that... I think that's like a negative stereotype. I don't think these people are like that at all." It's like, "Oh, well, why do you think...?" Yeah, but I have to have a certain strength in myself to understand people who don't agree with me. And I can't get mad every time.

I have to really listen to people with different opinions because there's some value in that. And if we respect and if we want to say we respect and we want people to have this equity and we want to reduce bias, we can't have bias ourselves. I guess that's the big point that I'm trying to make because everyone has it, everyone has bias, everyone judges. I do it, you do it, everyone does it.

But we have to really work to reduce that and listen to voices that are not like ours because there may be some real information in there. And I found that people are grateful for that. And I feel like that I could nudge people in a better direction. And I think I build trust and relationships with that. And so like I said, race bias are so emotional and it's such a challenging topic. We have to be mindful of how we approach it. Now, I also say that to say this. Now if a person who's just overt and just ridiculous, that's that. So I'm not talking about somebody coming up to you talking crazy to you and all this old kind of stuff. I'm talking about normal, reasonable human beings from different walks of life that want to at least have a civil discourse around it.

And we may not agree at the end of the day and that's okay too, but then it gives you some build up to go back later for another issue. You don't burn the bridge. I don't [crosstalk 01:07:43] if I clarified that well because I don't want people to think, "Well, yeah," like, yeah. I, trust me, I know all this stuff is real.

Kristen DeVall:

That's a great call to action, I think, around the building relationships piece. And as you were talking about building these relationships and with people that you may not agree, I was thinking teams could almost come together. Those folks that are making decisions about who's eligible, who's going to be enrolled in the program. Take a look at the list of folks that have been rejected from the program and take a second look to say, "Okay, why was this person rejected? Can we have a conversation about that? Might that person deserve a chance in the program?" So-

Dr. Eric Howard:

And here's the thing like I had, one of the best experiences I had as a professional was exactly that, like that Buxton County Veterans Treatment Court team. So there was 13 of us and I'm the only person of color. I was the only black person on the team, but it was pretty mixed male and female. But we had, what I did is, is when I got hired, I went and I talked to every team member, right, personally, before we even had a meeting and I didn't go up there and I didn't talk to them about treatment court. I went and I just [inaudible 01:09:06] introduced myself and I just, "Hey, how's your family? What's going on in your life?"

And I think people were like struck by, "Okay. Either I'm real suspicious of this dude or..." But I didn't talk about that. I talked about as much as they wanted to offer up. I talked about my family. I talked about my dog. I talked about liking going to fish. And I was really trying to have crossover of things that we had in common. And it was so funny. I had a personal relationship with just about everyone on that team. And we didn't always agree. And you would've thought we hated each other's gut sometimes, but we really were together and I can't really push that enough on these teams. Find common ground within your team members, your community legislatures, judges, find common ground. Like the judges, I mean, one of the judges in Buxton County, we had a great relationship.

We started reading and discussing [Tanya Easton Coats 01:10:14] book. And so I know it's there and I know people are willing to work with you. And so, I agree with you. I think that's just so impactful that you build those relationships with people and find common ground. I mean, it's one of the first things I did when I came to Iowa. I found all the people that like to fish. I found the art people. I do a little bit of photography and some other things and I just really work to find what do we have in common? Because we always focused on why we don't like somebody. I think that's just the American thing or something. It's like, why do we always seek to find an enemy and I think we just need to seek to find a friend and a fellow advocate. And if not, why can't we build a relationship and try to have a working relationship where we can nudge each other for the better?

Christina Lanier:

That's great. We could talk all day.

Kristen DeVall:

Right. We could [crosstalk 01:11:19] Such a good topic.

Dr. Eric Howard:

It's a broad subject. Courts, they really hit every system, medical, housing, trans... I mean it's every system, so.

Christina Lanier:

And yeah. But anyway.

Kristen DeVall:

What we're going to say.

Christina Lanier:

No, I mean, I just think that the system piece like that is sticking in my head, like-

Dr. Eric Howard:

Well, that's the whole piece we got to talk about like systemic racism. That's what people... We don't explain. I don't think we explain systemic racism well.

Christina Lanier:

We don't.

Dr. Eric Howard:

So that's some of those impacts, which create those biases and it's all driven by that same thing.

Christina Lanier:

And just the lack of... I mean, again, I guess that's why we use the word implicit because there is that sense of just people not knowing or not recognizing that it even happens and that it exists. I'm thinking about a program that we work with and to go back and look at some of those discharges from the prosecutor and say, "Hmm, is there a pattern here with what she's doing?"

Kristen DeVall:

Yeah, absolutely. Looking at your eligibility criteria. Exclusionary criteria, right, who is prevented from getting into the program?

Christina Lanier:

Well, and we know that's a big piece with some individuals that have had multiple contacts with the criminal justice system and so what does that look like? I mean, we know the whole violent offender thing is an issue with treatment courts but some people are working on that and trying to open up that door.

Kristen DeVall:

And who does that impact? Right. So let's go back to the system, right. Let's go back to the prosecutorial system of overcharging and who's most affected by overcharging and then who's most affected by being able to meet the criteria for the drug treatment court. I mean, it's just so, it's such a domino effect.

Christina Lanier:

And getting those folks at all of those decision making points to have a conversation about what can we do differently? Can we have a round table to look at rejections? Can we have a round table to talk about our process and what stop gap measures can we put in place to address some of these discretionary decisions that maybe fueled by implicit bias? So yeah, I think the systems piece is a big one and in addition to just people recognizing their own biases and working to address them, so.

Kristen DeVall:

And thanks for tying in the... We'll do the outro in a minute, but thanks for tying in the language, because that's something that we've been really advocating.

Dr. Eric Howard:

Yeah. No, I'm almost in the wellness one. So I do some walks every afternoon and then I always pop in a podcast. So I've been listening to these and I like to think about them. I like to hear them and think about and it is really well done with Miss Gunn and you all just had me really thinking about that. And I think that's what the podcast is about. Have those conversations and really think about it and what can you learn from that or glean from that and use it in a positive way? And so I appreciate you all for putting this together and then putting the podcast together because I'm learning from them, so that's great.

Kristen DeVall:

Great. Yeah.

Christina Lanier:

And having it be a conversation starter, right. So having teams listen to it and say, "Okay to come with your ideas. What did you make of this? Do you have any thoughts about..." So yeah, we hope that's just the starter of many conversations to come about that, about all of these issues, right. Unfortunately we're not going to solve them with the podcast.

Kristen DeVall:

We're going to try though.

Christina Lanier:

Right?

Kristen DeVall:

Exactly. Well, Eric, we would like to thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate your time and your willingness to share your knowledge about implicit bias. As we know from Best Practice Standard, number two, treatment court practitioners have an affirmative obligation to address disparities and inequities within their programs and the larger criminal justice system. Thus, the knowledge regarding how and where implicit bias shows up in our work is the first step toward affecting meaningful change. So thank you.

To our listeners, we appreciate you being here. We hope that you find the information regarding implicit bias useful both personally and professionally. Please join us on the NDCRC.org Justice To Healing discussion board, to continue the dialogue about implicit bias and how we can affect change. Please join us next month for another episode of Justice To Healing, and always remember, do better

Speaker 4:

To our listeners. We thank you for listening and we hope you enjoyed the show. Be sure to hit subscribe to stay updated on the podcast. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn to stay engaged with us and check out our website, NDCRC.org. Thanks again. Catch you next time on Justice To Healing.

The Justice to Healing podcast is presented by the National Drug Court Resource Center and was supported by the grant number 2019-DC-BX-K002, awarded by the Bureau of Justice Assistance, which also includes the Bureau of Justice Statistics, the National Institute of Justice, the Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention, the Office for Victims of Crime and the SMART Office. Points of view or opinions in this podcast are those of the author and do not necessarily represent the official position or policies in the United States Department of Justice.